Visual Art Performance vs. Contemporary Performance

With Performa having recently concluded and in the wake of the Marina Abramovic kerfuffle at the MOCA gala, I have been giving a lot of thought to the difference between visual art performance and contemporary performance – more specifically, Time-Based Art with its origins in dance and theater. This is an ongoing obsession of mine and one that I feel needs to be addressed critically. Thanks largely to RoseLee Goldberg, who literally wrote the book on performance art, the visual arts world has “rediscovered” performance in an unprecedented way. Unlike RoseLee, it seems that many of the visual arts curators currently working to promote visual arts performance lack knowledge in contemporary performance, and I think this presents a problem, as well as a challenge.

At the moment, Independent Curators International is offering a workshop on Curating Performance that features a group of teacher/advisors drawn entirely from the visual arts world who don’t appear to have backgrounds in contemporary performance. I find it surprising that ICI couldn’t find – or weren’t interested in finding – a single representative of the contemporary performance sector. And then I started thinking about who they could have approached and I realized that the number of performance curators who can speak eloquently and thoughtfully about why they program what they do is few and far between. Most of the curators I know are reluctant to speak about their criteria and aesthetic frameworks. I imagine this is one reason why the Institute For Curatorial Practice in Performance at Wesleyan was created. I have reached out to both ICI and ICPP for syllabi and reading lists to compare/contrast. If and when I receive those materials, I will write an addendum to this post. For now, rather than focus on the different curatorial perspectives I would like to share some of my subjective responses and thoughts related to the difference between visual art performance and contemporary performance.

In the past two weeks I have had several substantial discussions about this topic, two of which stick out for me. The first conversation was with one of New York’s most esteemed artistic director/curators and the other with a prominent director whose work has spanned both avant-garde performance and mainstream theater. From the artistic director I was told, “The visual arts world hates craft, they’re seeking ‘authenticity’,” suggesting that when a visual artist stages a performative event it should not have any degree of artifice, that it be perceived as “real”.

The director I spoke to said that the visual arts world, somewhat understandably, finds theater laughable and as a result rarely studies it. While I share the visual arts world’s distaste for popular theater predicated on “psychological realism”, I lament the fact that there are many, many devoted practitioners of contemporary performance who are as dramaturgically engaged in the construction of their time-based work as visual artists are in creating the intellectual framework around their object-based work, and that this is, apparently, not recognized or valued by the visual arts world. It is as if when visual artists and curators “discover performance” they think that they are the first to ever encounter the aesthetic issues it proposes. It would seem that they are frequently unaware of – or indifferent to – the fact that there is a long history of performance theory; that theater, and especially dance, have for many years explored issues around presence, embodiment, presentational aesthetics, the observed/observer relationship, the visual presentation of the constructed environment, the semiotics of representation, etc., etc. The visual art world might be surprised to read Hans-Thies Lehmann’s seminal writing on post-dramatic theater. They might be surprised to be exposed to the work of Rich Maxwell, Philippe Quesne, Cuqui Jerez, Xavier LeRoy and others who work extremely hard to create rigorous stagings of “the real” – who use artifice to create an experience of the real that is almost indistinguishable from the “real thing”. Or the work of Annie Dorsen who, in using computer programs and simulations, completely undermines the notion of “the real” itself.

I don’t know a lot about visual arts curatorial practice, but I have seen my fair share of both visual art performance and contemporary performance and the lack of meaningful dialogue between the two practices is troubling.

While Performa has taken the long view on visual art performance, tracing its development over the past 100 years or so, I think that when most people talk about performance art from a visual arts perspective they are referring to work that traces its precedents to the 50s through the 80’s, after which performance art fell more or less out of fashion. This may be ascribed (I’m just winging it here, but its a theory) to the rise of solo performance from a performance background – Karen Finley, et al – being labeled Performance Art and a desire by the visual art world to distance itself from that aesthetic.

There’s a revealing interview with Roselee Golberg on artinfo in which she says: “First, I think that artists who’ve never worked with performance before, they really almost don’t know where to begin” and then:

They haven’t dealt with things like performance rehearsals, they haven’t dealt with things like auditions, they haven’t dealt with things like lighting….Then there’s the next layer of questions I ask, where I’m really the guinea pig, I’m the audience member. If I’m going to walk into this room, what is it going to feel like when I walk in? What is the room going to look like? Is there going to be sound right away? What kind of feeling do you want people to have? I spent all these years thinking about performance, looking for all these things that did work or didn’t work, and I feel like that’s my role sometimes, to be critical.

Earlier in the same interview she says:

I think what Performa did was suddenly say, let’s dream up another kind of artist performance, and let’s give visual artists who maybe have never made this kind of work before a chance to create something extraordinary that is the equivalent of beautiful work that we are seeing in galleries and museums, and not backwards-looking material that seems to be getting further and further in the corner in a way and being very much about ‘70s and ‘80s and so on.

The basic idea of artists creating performance that is equivalent to the work in galleries or museums is a compelling proposition – but at the same time it suggests that only those artists identified as visual artists who are entering – naively and lacking practical knowledge and historical background – into the world of performance, are going to be making that work.  It largely ignores the signifcant body of work being created by time-based artists for whom performance is their primary discipline and does nothing to raise the value and perception of that work. To me this is problematic.

Ideally I would love to see Performa acknowledge even more work by time-based artists – directors, choreographers, ensembles – who are creating, on a regular basis, contemporary performance. That seems unlikely, in which case I would like to see the world of Contemporary Performance engage in parallel strategies to those of Performa and work harder to elevate the valuation and perception of staged or site-based performance work. Rather than the chaotic mishmash of APAP season festivals, I can imagine a new festival that ties together the most forward-focused work from UTR, Coil and American Realness under one umbrella with thoughtful dramaturgy and academic panels.

So what are some of the differences between Visual Art Performance and Contemporary Performance?

First I would suggest the notion of context and infrastructure. Visual Art, historically, is about the creation of objects – paintings, sculptures, photographs – that can be sold. One impulse behind Visual Art Performance was the rejection of making objects for sale in favor of creating non-commodifiable, ephemeral events that were meant to critique and undermine the capitalist structures of the art market. Some artists, like Marina Abramovic, have managed to commodify that work in retrospect, completely abandoning any pretense of anti-capitalism, in fact becoming major players in it. (Cue the MOCA Gala kerfuffle).

Since Visual Art has historically been about the creation of objects for sale, there is a massive infrastructure in place to create value around objects – museums, galleries, academics, journals, etc. Artists create with an accompanying intellectual framework and  put their art into the marketplace where it is contextualized by critics, academics and curators. This helps create perceived value. If it gets into a museum show, it raises the value. If the artist works assiduously to hone their public image and awareness of their “brand” the value continues to rise. Objects that were created, essentially, without value beyond the cost of materials, become more prized due to scarcity and a sort of symbolic connection to a larger cultural framework. This art object is then bought and resold over time, with the hope that it will continue to rise in value. Artists rarely share in the resale revenues of work that has significantly appreciated in value, but that’s another story. The Visual Art marketplace is, in a way, as pure an expression of capitalism as one could imagine. The irony of the art world’s frequent embrace of leftist anti-capitalist ideology is not lost on me.

The recent rediscovery of performance by the Visual Art world could be viewed, cynically, as the latest fashion in a milieu that mostly values the new and the “edgy”. Tino Sehgal is a laughable choreographer, but he’s a brilliant businessman. And the art world, to be frank, is somewhat masochistic. They love nothing more than someone who can fuck with them in a novel and ingenious way. The fact that Sehgal has monetized abstraction and ephemerality is a stroke of genius. He has taken advantage of the thrill-seeking impulse of the hyper-capitalist art market and managed, like a financial services whiz, to turn the mere idea of a performance into money. Brilliant.

I propose that when most visual artists come to performance, they are still thinking within the framework of object-making. They may be engaging with concepts around experience and representation, but from a perspective of bringing visual art to life in the time-based world using the techniques and tropes with which they are already familiar. They may not be concerned with the study of movement and embodied presence, of the craft of performance or the  challenges of the created environment. In contrast, Contemporary Performance as a genre has its roots in theater and dance. Experimental, to be sure, but rooted in explorations that are primarily focused on the performative event itself.

I’m no fan of traditional theater. That’s my background, but I long ago tired of the limitations of psychological realism and conventional narrative. I can see why people from a visual arts background might find it less than compelling. But the world of Contemporary Performance has long since distanced itself from “drama” and practitioners of contemporary performance should be acknowledged for the work they do. Dancers and choreographers train for years, and continue to train every day, to master their bodies, enabling themselves to do extraordinary things. They deeply explore the nature of movement, the way bodies moving in space convey different meanings and experiences, point to different ideas. Directors work with dramaturges to develop intellectual frameworks around the experiences they create, around how to integrate the visual and auditory experience with the performance, how does all this point to ideas beyond the performed event? How does the physical representation of ideas on a stage or at a site loop back to the concepts with which they are engaged?

One difference, I think, is that time-based artists working in contemporary performance frequently think about, as Goldberg puts it, “What kind of feeling do you want people to have?” – something that is new to visual arts practitioners. This may seem like a mild distinction, but it is key. Performance practitioners are experience-makers, not object-makers, and as such they are concerned with human engagement. Directors, choreographers and other performance-makers may be engaging with making manifest the inner life of human beings, defining the space between audience and performance as a shared field of intersecting subjectivities. And this means that we’re not only talking about thoughtful, detached examination of intellectual ideas, but, sometimes, feelings. This is where it gets tricky because what makes Traditional Theater so abhorrent to many is the unseemly focus on feelings and emotion. I’ll admit, I think there is nothing more awful than having to sit in a theater and watch some actor “act” the words of a playwright who is blatantly and unsubtly trying to evince an emotional response from the audience. In this day and age the provocation of an emotional response that doesn’t feel obvious or unearned is exceedingly difficult, and artists who are able to do this effectively are few and far between.

That being said, if a visual artist is making work in the context of creating objects for sale, it does not seem like a stretch to suggest that the framework of objectification will translate into the practice of visual art performance. In the visual art context, the body is an object to be manipulated like any other, or it is a canvas upon which the artist can project their desired meaning. If that body becomes more than object, it complicates the essential aesthetic transaction of the visual art experience. The attribution of feelings and emotions to a human being creates the possibility of empathy, moving the body from a field of abstraction into one of subjectivity. [Note: while discussing this essay with a friend of mine I was directed to the work of German philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer and his study of hermeneutical aesthetics. I am only starting to research it, but it is brilliant, fascinating and relevant].

The Abramovic installation at the MOCA Gala appears to have been, based on after-the-fact accounts, objectification taken to its extreme, with human beings serving as literal centerpieces at the dining tables of the wealthy and privileged. From what I understand from performers’ accounts online some were subjected to mockery and ridicule – for instance, a pile of salt arranged like a line of coke in front of the immobile performer – and generally put in an unenviable position. I’m sure that some of the performers had a very different experience, and only those who were in attendance can speak authoritatively, but from my perspective the premise itself borders on disgusting while being emblematic of the values of a hyper-capitalist art market.

So in brief – I am proposing that visual art performance, generally, is predicated on the objectification and abstraction of the human body, whereas contemporary performance – Time-Based Art with its origins in dance and theater – is more frequently predicated on the creation of a subjective field of experience – what I will call “experience design”. The aesthetic challenges of integrating light, sound, visual representation and embodied presence – sometimes even text – into a Gesamtkunstwerk are undertaken not to create a “living object” but to create a shared experience.

So while both visual art and performance contexts rely on the vision of an artist, the path to the desired end result is different. The visual artist comes from an object-making context and approaches their work under that influence, whether by embracing or rejecting that paradigm. Contemporary performance, more often than not, actively acknowledges and celebrates the essential ephemerality of the form. The artwork exists only in the moment in which it is perceived, the audience has a role in the creation of the work itself, each performance and expression is unique depending on who is there to experience it. No two performance events are ever alike – and that is part of the beauty of it. Contemporary Performance events are rarely thought of as objects for sale, or as advancing an artist’s ability to create objects-for-sale. Maybe that should change – that’s a longer discussion for another time.

I will also propose that the practice of art-making in visual art performance versus contemporary performance is reflective of the object vs. experience framework. Performance, even from the most dictatorial choreographer or theater maker, is essentially a collaborative process. In order to bring a performance to life one requires the collaboration of directors, writers, composers, dramaturges, actors, lighting designers, set designers, technicians, programmers, videographers, choreographers, dancers, etc., etc. Visual art making is less frequently like that. Traditional visual arts practice is that of an artist alone in the studio or a master artist overseeing poorly paid laborers hired to fabricate objects under their direction. This method, I surmise, translates into visual art performance, where the same practices hold. Rather than collaboration, there are workers engaged to implement the singular, exacting vision of the artist. So we see a fundamental divide in both the practice of art making and in the theoretical constructs surrounding the creation of any given work. Yes, there are artists working in spectacle-oriented performance – Robert Wilson, for example – who are notoriously dictatorial and exacting. Never having been privy to Wilson’s practice I can’t say how collaborative he may or may not be. But I would imagine that even he must work responsively to the input of his co-creators.

Obviously this is a vast generalization. There are visual artists working with food experiences, community-engaged practices, etc. who defy the framework I’m suggesting. My concern is that for those visual artists engaged specifically in the making of “performance”, the disdain for craft and the disinterest in artists already working in contemporary performance not only results in subpar work being celebrated by the arts market and visual arts infrastructure, but continues the ongoing devaluation of contemporary performance from dance and theater makers.

This is a complicated issue – one which is far too much to fully engage here. Kaprow-style “happenings”, Chris Burden being shot, etc. are experiments in “the real” that become more problematic when “re-performed”. Nina Horisaki-Christens explores this idea in a recent essay in the ICI Journal where she discusses the Visual Art world’s discomfort with “script”. She says:

In his recent musings in Artforum on the future of Trisha Brown’s work, Douglas Crimp posits that her signature solo Watermotor, as performed by Brown, is a masterpiece. He then follows up by inquiring, “Will it ever be danceable by anyone but Brown?”  The question is not so much will it be danced by anyone else, as Crimp was likely aware that it would inevitably be performed by another at some point, but would it be danced as expressively and imaginatively by anyone else other than its maker. In Performance Art this seems to be the crux of the question of authenticity: can the work reach its full potential, retain its essential meaning and character, when performed in a different context or by a different individual?

It is such an interesting – and flawed – paradox. I saw Watermotor performed by Neal Beasley last spring at DTW (now NYLA). It was beautiful and extraordinary. Was it the same as watching Trisha Brown do it herself? Probably not. Does it make it any less authentic? Not in the least. Here is Deborah Jowitt on Beasley in Watermotor:

In 1978, with Watermotor, Brown unloosed the inborn wildness that her earlier plain-jane structures had been reining in. You can see her dancing the solo in Babette Mangolte’s black-and-white film, projected on the DTW lobby wall. Galloping, twisting flinging her limbs into moves and countermoves, she’s a marvel of ribbony obliques; this dance could pass through the eye of a needle. It’s fascinating to see the terrific Beasley perform the piece. He’s a small, muscular man—supple but taut. His Watermotoris less about cool liquid than about molten metal that has to be worked fast before it hardens. There’s no accompaniment but the sound of his breathing. The virtuosic performance lasts about two-and-a-half minutes, and we cheer. Beasley calmly rode Brown’s bronco of a dance and didn’t fall off.

I would suggest that Visual Art’s obsession with authenticity has less to do with respecting an artist’s original intent and more to do with an inherited predisposition towards protecting ownership. Once again this is a larger conversation than can be explored fully here and now. (Maybe someone will give me a grant so I can study this more deeply. LOL.)

The larger point I’m making is two-fold. First, visual art performance, because of its object-based origins and the field’s obsessions with “the real” and “authenticity” rejects craft and discipline. This is problematic because, frankly, it results in a lot of very bad performance. Second, because the visual arts world has a value-creating infrastructure, this bad performance is more highly valued in the marketplace than Contemporary Performance by time-based artists with origins in dance and theater. Performance work that is more sophisticated, thoughtful, challenging and virtuosic is de-prioritized and devalued in favor of unpracticed – but “real” – performative events created by visual artists.

There was a time when both visual art and performance valued craft. Times have changed. Experimental artists in both disciplines are uncomfortable with artifice, reject the obvious falsity of “psychological realism” and seek new modes of engagement with the public. The problem is that they do not share knowledge or even dialogue around their respective practices, aesthetics, goals and strategies. The Visual Art world has no incentive to value contemporary performance, because their work will remain remunerative regardless. Though I would like to see more visual artists reach across the fence to time-based artists and engage them in a collaborative process, I’m not optimistic. If that is not going to happen, then it is time for Contemporary Performance makers to actively re-contextualize their work and for the arts infrastructure to develop strategies for creating value around experience design. Curators, administrators, critics and artists must work together to create a value-appreciation structure that will situate performance predicated on experimental dance and theater in the wider arts world, and identify ways to either leverage or recreate the visual arts model.

Unfortunately I don’t have the time or money to go to grad school or take any of these curatorial workshops like ICPP or ICI, and as I jokingly said before, it is unlikely that I will get some kind of grant to actually research and write on these topics. I’m just a working stiff who has had to figure this out myself as I go along, self-educating as I go. This is only predicated on my life experience, not book learning. Like Michael Kaiser says, I’m just an amateur who needs to be properly instructed by the anointed Brahmins of High Culture. So who knows? Maybe I’m totally wrong. What do you think? What is your experience either lived or studied?

Please discuss in the comments section.

Comments

65 responses to “Visual Art Performance vs. Contemporary Performance”

  1. Fergus Byrne

    Excellent article. Many things to consider. The distinction between 'object' and 'experience' based is interesting. Having studied Visual art i understand the notion of creating a work and letting the audience interpret it as the will. There is a sense of not assuming responsibility for each individual reaction whereas the Contemporary performer (these definitions are bound to blur) seems to work differently with a concern to guide the audience in some direction.
    This is a broad discussion requiring open minds and willingness to learn on all practitioners parts and I hope it continues. There is much mutual learning to be done

  2. amandahbjones

    Cool! I'm in the same boat, but you've read a lot more than I. 😉
    Why not grad school? Is it really impossible now even with financial aid? (Asking because I'm currently thinking in that direction)

    This is interesting to read, especially since I have NOT read a lot of art criticism/theory (but I do have a basic art history education — Sister Wendy style + MOMA visits)
    — and coming from "artist" as an inherited family identity, plus extensive visual arts exposure and practice, plus modern dance, music appreciation, and then music –> I have had a roundabout entry into performance art/community art/experience-creation. Or natural, depending on how you look at it.
    I'm going to bookmark this!

    1. regi

      i have an mfa in "performance" from a prestigious art school, and trust me when i say that there is not great hope of elucidation there. this essay articulated many things that remained murky for me long after graduation. thanks, andy. art schools need you more than you need them.

  3. Andy, I agree with you completely and I think this is such an important issue.

    I'd like to add one thing: The opposition between the "authenticity" of craft-less (conceptual) visual arts performance and well-crafted but potentially "artificial" theatre leaves out the highly crafted and disciplined but equally non-fictional area of theater and dance TRAINING. In the moment of what is usually called "training," theater and dance artists engage directly in the cultivation of craft. But there is no fiction, no representational world, no "directorial" perspective, and no attention paid to what an audience would see — in fact, there is no external audience at all.

    This is important because it's easy to think that the authenticity and non-fictional quality of visual arts performance comes from its lack of craft. Then we confuse craft with fictionality. It's true that the visual arts world, like theater and dance, has historically valued craft mostly because it's good at creating representational worlds and images. But there is also a parallel history of formalist exploration that is highly crafted without being representational, fictional, or artificial.

    In other words, you can have very high levels of embodied craft without invoking fictional characters or stories. This happens all the time in dance and theater training as well as in yoga and martial arts. In such places — which I would call "studios," a third space distinct from both the "white boxes" of galleries and the "black boxes" of theaters — there is a similar focus on presence and direct realness as in what you've described as visual arts performance. But in the studio, the search for authentic presence is built on an investigation of craft rather than its rejection.

    1. regi

      your comment puts me in mind of jerzy grotowski's work after he quit making theater and began the kind of experiential work that is described so lusciously by andre gregory in "my dinner with andre". i'm wondering if that's what you have in mind or not and where the "audience" is if it's not what you're talking about. in grotowski's work, the audience was the artist and vice versa, which is to say that there was no audience per se.

  4. […] silence — or, better, to dismiss it as irrelevant or uninformed. Just recently, essays by Andy Horwitz and Jeremy Barker in Culturebot and Scott Walters at Theatre Ideas have, at a length and with […]

  5. YES!!! Thank you, and needs to be said.

  6. genevieve

    makes me think of catherine sullivan: worth looking into her model: commercial visual artist contemporary performance content and discourse http://www.pbs.org/art21/artists/catherine-sulliv

  7. Andy! Thank you for dissecting this great divide so brilliantly. I’m inspired to create a Time Based Art festival in New York. Really! It must be done. How can we harass the collective good will and energy of the contemporary performance community and really make this happen. I mean it. How can we do this? We need it. We can’t let the virus of Performa spread.

    1. John,
      This is Jill, I know you from Galapagos. I have been curating & presenting Performance Art in NYC since 2002. I opened the Grace Exhibition Space in 2006. Right now, we are in Miami. We have been invited to curate Performance Art for the Fountain Art Fair, and it our 3rd time exhibiting with them.
      I hope to hear from you & learn more about what you want to put together.
      All the best!! Jill http://www.Grace-Exhibition-Space.com

  8. Meghan Flanigan

    Really interesting discussion. I don't have a lot to add except that I am seeing more and more interest in this area among artists (including myself). A festival would be wonderful.

  9. Hey John – thanks for the props. I want to clarify, though. I totally respect RoseLee and Performa. As I said, she wrote the book, literally. She was one of the founder of the Kitchen – or at least one of their first curators – and one of the few visual art curators who you will regularly see at BAM, DTW/NYLA, PS122, The Kitchen, etc. etc. But she has her priorities, I think, and she's also strategic and brilliant as a cultural entrepreneur. I'm really lamenting the fact that contemporary performance has nothing comparable and is going to lose the race for cultural relevance, funding and audience engagement.

    1. I totally respect RoseLee and Performa too. And yes, I've seen her at our stopping grounds. Love her!!! But the "popularity" of Performa is beginning (maybe) to overshadow contemporary performance in the broader New York cultural dialogue and I'm worried that it will take over. Time Based Art needs a festival too. It needs more exposure. And I'm serious, we need to make this happen.

  10. Thanks Andy.

    It is an interesting discussion, and for another take on the issue, have a look at Emergency INDEX, a forthcoming annual book from Ugly Duckling Presse which posits contemporary performance as an emerging independent discipline, now — for the first time in history — having more to do with its own practice and problematics than with the history of dance, theater, visual art, political activism, therapy, or whatever the parent genre from which it emerged.

    INDEX proposes that instead of asking if it is theater or visual art or visual art performance, it is more useful to ask: why was it made? how does it function? what tactics does it use?

    By looking across genres instead of getting tangled up in them, INDEX proposes that people can access real innovations and ideas in performance as it actually exists, around the world, in 2011.

    INDEX and UDP are hosting a free panel at CUNY on November 30th at 6:30: http://web.gc.cuny.edu/mestc/events/f11/ugly-duck

    Thanks again for the article.

    Yelena Gluzman
    INDEX Co-editor http://www.emergencyindex.com

  11. Ken Rus

    Breathlessly smart. You’re not an amateur. You don’t need to write things like, “Maybe I’m totally wrong.” That’s the given embedded in all critical writing.

  12. Brian Rogers

    “The visual arts world hates craft, they’re seeking ‘authenticity’,” suggesting that when a visual artist stages a performative event it should not have any degree of artifice, that it be perceived as “real”. – sure, I see this, but what these folks fail to understand much of the time is that it takes real skill to do (and the lack of understanding on this point just serves to reinforce the innate and shocking subtext of prejudice – if I go out and make a painting and claim that it is somehow more authentic and real because, well, I don't know how to paint – I'll get laughed out of the room); I saw a lot of work at Performa this year (and ok, I'll add to the chorus – RoseLee is deserving of respect etc etc) that was not "real" so much as it was just undercooked and felt, frankly, like that bs "authentic moment" stuff you see in college acting classes – just another kind of artifice, artlessly performed. Of course I might be out of step w/ this – the Ming Wong performance, which I thought was literally one of the worst things I'd seen in years, was very favorably reviewed by the Times visual art critic….go figure.

    I also see the point re: finding theater laughable. I ignore a lot of that stuff myself; but to dismiss an entire art form out of hand is just ignorant on so many levels- there's plenty of laughable / modish / stupid visual art after all….the solution is to dig deeper; I know a lot of smart curators who find ways of doing that.

    All of this is a very one-note response to your very thorough thinking.

  13. Andy, Have you ever been to, or heard of, the Grace Exhibition Space in Brooklyn?
    We have been curating & presenting Contemporary Visual Performance/Performance Art since 2006 in NYC.

  14. RLewis

    A, Just want to say that I really appreciate this thoughtful post. I'm surprised that you did not use the term "live art", which I see a lot when reading about performances made by visual artists. The term works a lot better for me, because it takes "performance" out of that side of the context, and then words like "craft" and "authenticity" feel less problematic. This post reminded me of some similiar debates that I've had with myself, but I find the contrasts are more helpful when it's: live art vs. performance art. Thanks, R

  15. This is only the briefest of responses, as I've only got a couple minutes, but I think that it's hard for me to accept, Andy, that you dismiss narrative theater when you talk about the work of Thomas Bradshaw and watching his career. I think what's harmful in this discussion is maintaining the distinctions. I think RoseLee, while on the one hand trying to maintain the "Visual Art Performance" category, has also widened what she includes in Performa each year, with this year's festival embracing performers well outside any visual art connotation–particularly artists like Richard Pryor or Guy Maddin. She, on the one hand, steadfastly holds that visual art line, but on the other, embraces curation that denies the efficacy of the category. I think you might be doing something similar in trying to distinguish "Contemporary Performance" from the visual arts and also from "theater." You make some great points, and I'll be keen to read this again more closely, but I think there's a fallacy in distinction that is happening here that undercuts some of your points. We can't disavow theater in order to embrace contemporary performance or visual arts performance because, as you point out, theater is gave both much of the language they use. I think the categories are getting in the way here. That said, I know too well the problem of distinguishing contemporary performance from other performance in language. So, I'll hold onto that for further thought.

    -Alexis

    1. I see your point, Alexis, but let's not get bogged down in semantics here. While the lines are anything but clear and distinct in the end, these are nevertheless valid distinctions. There are worlds of difference between an Adam Rapp play, a Radiohole performance, and Marina Abramovic, to throw out three examples. There is aesthetic and poetic crossover; but surely we don't actually have to either programatically define every difference or reject categorization altogether to have a conversation.

  16. Hi Andy, thank you for your article. I am curatorial assistant at Exit Art, NYC. Please keep an eye out for our Spring 2012 exhibitions, due to open mid-March.

    I'm originally from the UK and the term Live Art is widely used there, and has been since the 1980's. It's my favoured term for the more recent modes of performance work. Though while living in New York, I have had to amend this to 'Visual Theatre' or 'Visual Performance.'
    http://www.britishcouncil.org/usa-arts-uk-arts-gu

    I'm also lucky enough to have an MA in Theatre & Performance from Queen Mary University of London. The Drama department of which was ranked 1st in the UK in 2008 in the Research Assessment Exercise, published in The Times Higher. The staff there are beyond exceptional.
    http://www.drama.qmul.ac.uk/postgraduate/degreeprhttp://www.drama.qmul.ac.uk/staff/index.html

    In Scotland, there is the annual international festival, the National Review of Live Art. http://www.newmoves.co.uk/newmovesinternational.p

    Count me in to getting something excellent off the ground over here.

    Verity

  17. Clarinda Mac Low

    Hey Andy. Bowled over by your thorough thinking, as everybody seems to be. And your piece has an interesting dovetail with an experience I just had recently, right before reading. A visual artist staging a performance-based work asked me to give a movement workshop to her performers, all amateur actors. Two hours of basic physical and performance awareness made a huge difference in the performance, and she was extremely grateful and excited. I relate this experience to illustrate a possibility of fruitful cross-pollination–yes, there may be some in the visual arts world who reject training, but I think there are just as many that crave information and training, and may not know how to gain access to it in a way that is relevant to their form (a dance class won't necessarily inform a performance sculpture, unless it's just the _right_ dance class). Alternatively, there is a conceptual rigor and thoughtfulness to much visual art that can be illuminating for live art practitioners, but, again, access is difficult. I think as the boundaries blur more and more, this kind of exchange serves all art forms, and may be one of the solutions to the current (artificial) divide and spurious competition between the two.

    That said, I am also very intrigued by the proposition of INDEX and Yelena, that performance is its own practice, and is making its own new history. But this also begs for a skill-share across those rapidly deteriorating lines between disciplines…

    Thanks again, Andy, for getting this discussion off to such a rollicking start.
    Clarinda

  18. Very interesting essay, congrats! I don't think anyone here mentioned that Performance Studies is a discipline concerned with the analysis of various forms of performance – whatever we we like to call them. For instance I like the distinction "conceptual performance" vs "narrative performance". There are many other distinctions to be made. This discussion is truly necessary. Oh, and the term "postdramatic theatre" was coined by Richard Schechner, the creator of Performance Studies (together with the anthropologist Victor Turner), Lehman acknowledges that in his book.
    performative cheers,
    saviana

  19. Hi everyone! Thanks so much for the comments and insights. It seems like this is a long overdue discussion and I'm glad we're able to start it going here. It is late and I've still got a ton of work to do but I wanted to respond to a few things that are popping up.

    First, I'm well aware of the term "Live Art" and it was a conscious decision not to use it in this article. There are many reasons for that, but mostly because I felt like it would further complicate the issue. I think it is a valuable classification, but for the purposes of this essay I felt that it was more important to really focus on context more than content.

    I agree with Alexis (less so with Yelena) that most of these classifications are not terribly helpful – performance art, contemporary performance, visual art performance, live art, etc. etc. – the larger issue is that many artists these days are working somewhere in between and beyond traditional discipline classifications.

    My primary concern is that those artists who contextualize their work in the visual art world seem more likely to have their work highly valued financially and critically than artists working in the theater and dance based contexts. I find this problematic because it devalues the work that theater and dance based artists do – and I've found many visual artists seem to implicitly reject the notion that making performance is a difficult and challenging practice on its own terms. Like Brian said – if I were to say my painting were more "authentic" because I didn't know how to paint would be absurd.

    At the end of the day what I would like to see is what Clarinda suggests – a mutual respect and dialogue between artist in various media, more collaboration and more conversation about where these practices and investigations intersect and how we can work together to share our expertise. I wish visual arts practitioners would turn to choreographers, directors, etc. to learn about the practice of performance making. And I wish that performance-makers would collaborate closely with visual artists to learn about their concerns, aesthetics and practices.

    We are all, collectively, moving into uncharted territory where boundaries are blurred and modes of expression are merging, even new ones (interactive, web-based, mobile technology, etc.) are being created. If we could foster more collaboration and in-depth conversation I think we would all benefit.

    As to Alexis's narrative theater question – way too much to go into here. I LOVE text-based work and artists like Rich Maxwell, Kristen Kosmas, Jenny Schwartz, Will Eno, et al, do amazing work in the "traditional" theater – I hardly know where to begin in terms of how to integrate that into the above discussion. As far as Tom Bradshaw goes, he was introduced to me by Young Jean Lee – a classmate of his in Mac Wellman's Brooklyn College Master's program. it is fascinating to see how YJ has really pushed the limits of what "traditional" theater can be, while Thomas has basically chosen a different, more conventional and less challenging path. I admire experimental and adventurous writers who have to constantly battle against the mediocrity that is most "playwriting" – but that is a much bigger discussion for another time.

    I'm so happy that this discussion is happening here! That's why I started Culturebot in the first place! Thanks for keeping it going!

    1. here is a fantasy

      There's a history of visual art performance which the most self-aware contemporary artists respond to, particularly responding to people like John Cage. There's no way that 4' 33" isn't about experience, which Horwitz claims to be in the realm of theater. I could point out my other discrepancies with this article, based on my background in contemporary art and art history, but I'd rather focus on creating a space to share what's been overlooked in both fields to help create a new conversation.

      Andy, once you get those syllabi, I'd love to read them.

      1. I\’m sorry but I don\’t see the equivalence RE Cage. I\’m reasonably familiar with his work and have read Kyle Gann\’s incredibly thorough and thoughtful history of 4\’33\”, \”No Such Thing As Silence\” and I don\’t recall Cage ever situating his work in a visual art context. Cage was a brilliant and rigorous composer who pushed the boundaries of contemporary music. His partner and frequent collaborator Merce Cunningham was a brilliant, rigorous and innovative choreographer. Though they collaborated with many visual artists and were critically engaged with the visual art world, they were deeply knowledgeable and accomplished in their respective fields.

        My concern is that, from my experience, particularly at Performa, many visual artists moving into performance practice don\’t engage with collaborators who are accomplished and experienced in performance (more so with music) and the visual arts field as a whole prizes \”authenticity\” and the \”praxis of everyday life\” over craft. Which is fine – I just think it\’s a shame that there isn\’t more communication.

        Take, for example, Trisha Brown\’s \”Floor of the Forest\” vs. the work of Tino Seghal. Trisha Brown, whose work straddles the visual arts and dance worlds, is an extremely rigorous and innovative choreographer with deep knowledge and extensive training. When she is invited to do \”Floor of the Forest\” as an installation in a museum, she auditions dancers and sends dancers from her company to train them in the piece. There is an expectation of a certain level of competence and technique. From my understanding this is not how Seghal works. I\’m not sure how he casts his pieces, but I\’ve been led to believe that he essentially hands off the \”score\” and leaves it up to the performers. I\’m open to being educated on his practice, but my impression is that he is not terribly concerned with the technique or rigor of the performers or the precise embodiment of a specific movement vocabulary.

        The \”object vs. experience\” framework that I have outlined is not meant to be comprehensive or authoritative, but a device for beginning to parse the valuations and priorities of performance in different contexts. Hopefully this can kick-start a dialogue that has been long-dormant. I\’m hoping to inspire a conversation that will lead to new frameworks where these connections between visual art and performance practice can happen, hopefully resulting in deep, meaningful, mutually respectful collaborations and knowledge sharing between artists working in different – but related – forms.

  20. thanks andy, very well done. great thread, wow! you dont need a grant, just do this once a week and you will have a book soon. my thoughts are that the proposition by Index is right on. However, there is something else at work here with the world of contemporary art and performance. You write off tino sehgal pretty quickly, but we should be asking how he came to that position. It was more than being a savvy businessman. Without going into that, I think it points to a fundamental divide in the worlds of theatre-based performance and visual art. The market is a huge part of it, because when something is sold for a lot of money it is seen completely differently. Though it would be nice to take money out of this equation all together, I think the real rub is why visual artists tend to make money than performers and choreographers, even when the visual artists are doing performance! It's almost a class war, and that makes it quite sad really, but maybe it could all be changed if instead of taking sides we asked questions about why the work was produced and prodded ourselves to be curious instead of defensive.

  21. Kyra

    i'm not sure why the writers and sources in this article (and commenters) feel the need to bash "traditional" theater, or psychological realism. Denigrating it doesn't make performance art any more interesting or valid than any other art form. As for "theater people" and "visual art people," categories like this are needlessly snobby and infantile. Find a way to define what you're doing without denigrating whole groups of artists. Many of us practice in a wide variety of media, but I don't see any need to define myself as an Actor Who Makes Visual Art But Just Detests Traditional Representative Painting, Blech.

    1. SMG

      I agree. I love this article and find it most of it very useful, but it does feel like Andy mentions his distaste for narrative, narrative theater, traditional theater or "psychological realism" as a sort of credential. Avant garde street cred. "Don't get me wrong, most theater sucks, but…" Why should artists feel the need to apologize for the mediocre or the uninteresting in any art form? Apparently no one feels the need to say "Don't get me wrong, the Nutcracker is played out, but…"

  22. matvei

    Andy. Thank you for writing this, for thinking about this.

    If you haven't looked at Mike Sell's book "Avant-garde performance and the limits of criticism" in which he discusses Living Theater, Fluxus, Black Arts Movement… basically what the avant-garde was doing while the academy was talking about the death of the avant-garde and the art market was all about abstract expressionism… it's worth while. Also the issue of theatricality as in-authenticity that you raise is an interesting one when thinking about the accusations levied against minimalist sculpture, accusations that were also used against conceptual art (see M. Fried's anger about art's theatricalization). Visual art it would seem has always been suspicious about theater… Yet, the avant-garde manifesto, according to Perloff and others, was indeed theater — it was situational, it provoked a response from a public, etc… It's not unimportant that in wanting to shake things up, Marinetti relied on theater — as OWS and other "occupies" have been doing. Marinetti said "EVERYTHING OF ANY VALUE IS THEATRICAL" — and that is for me a defining turn, at least as important as the "linguistic" one.

    But then, what do we do with the "relational" generation — dinners as art, and so forth…? I think you're right that some of those folks haven't thought about the practice of Foreman or Rainer or Stuart Sherman, let alone Maxwell, Kosmas, Kempson, etc… of the new playwrights (many of whom are deep performers themselves); And why would those artists need to, if they are working with another kind of audience?

    To speak about "artifice" in this context is really interesting — Charles Bernstein's poem/essay "The Artifice of Absorption" comes to mind, and might be good for seeing the two sides of the artifice coin. The theater, though, is a problem for the art world not only because of artifice per se, but because it has defined itself in the 20th century (in anti-psychological and in 'realist' work both, though in different ways) through its autonomy from life, in other words it's hard to see how the art of theater can infiltrate "the praxis of everyday life" if it stays in the environment of lighting and sound design, and even "environment" as you say… I'm wondering about this "environment design" in a time after the end of experience. I mean, how can we know we're having an experience if we're living in a time where our notion of experience is ahistorical and commodified? And the theater/dance experience constantly resists (even inherently, in its basic make-up) documentation, i.e. commodification…

    Well, all I can say at this late hour in the comments roll, is that you should all come tomorrow (Wednesday) to this Segal Center event (CUNY, Nov 30, 6:30) to see a thing about Performance Publishing — which seeks to engage both sides of the Contemporary Performance / Visual Art Performance divide you've charted out, and to look at the future of criticism, documentation, printed words, and all that in relation to the larger field of performance. I hope you'll join in on the conversation.

    1. Thanks for this thoughtful comment and the references to scholarly work. Will definitely research the writing you've mentioned. This is what I'm trying to get from ICI and ICPP. While I'm sure much of this is available, in some form, online, it would be great to start some kind of publicly available, maybe even crowd-sourced, reading list (with links) that could be shared by practitioners, writers and audience members interested in these topics.

      I am curious about the notion of "Death of Experience" – what does that mean, exactly?

      I'm going to try to come to the Segal Center if I can get out of work early enough. Will you be documenting the event in any way? It would be great to make some video/audio or transcript available online.

      Thanks!

      Andy

  23. Excellent way to spend my morning reading time, thank you for this! Particularly found fruitful your distinction between living objects and shared experience-food for thought and still chewing on it, cold commodification aside. I understand your initial concerns about the curating piece and the demonstrated lack thereof as a prompt to this essay, check! but I must say I have some niggling worries about emphasizing curators, institutes, or any academic initiatives as curatives.

  24. Neal Medlyn

    Thanks so much for writing this Andy! It was great to read since I spend a lot of time, and bore myself to tears a lot, thinking about performa.

    There are a lot of things about performa that make me crazy. Some of it about the terms.Since I think of myself as a performance artist as opposed to a visual art performancer (makes me see myself dancing around in front of a painting) or live artist ("holy shit! that paining just came to life and jumped down off that wall!!"), I can get all crazy with the semantics of all this. But I don't wanna.

    Really my thing is that Performa had this idea: We should get visual artists outta their stuffy studios and get them under some hot stage lights!

    Well, ok…. Weird, but…

    And then they put a big banner on it: Dear America: This is Performance Art!

    Hm, not so ok with me…

    I feel like Performa basically hires people to make Performa's dreams come true. Performa is an artwork by RoseLee Goldberg, not a curated biennial of anything other than Performa's wants and desires.

    Which is sort of annoying, but fine. But let's not pretend this is something that's actually happening. Performa doesn't curate anything, it creates things.

    If it creates some work I find interesting, I'd go see it, but it bothers me when you read reviews in the Times and such where Performa is held up as some sort of biennial of what's happening in performance, when it isn't, IMHO, as the kids say, even in the visual art derived sense of the word.

    So maybe Performa's a good artist then since it has shaken up all this dialogue.

    But it's not a biennial. It's not an exhibition of anything other than it's own curation.

    NM

    1. joseph keckler

      You are SO right!

    2. SMG

      Um, YES.

    3. Brian Rogers

      Neal, you're right.

      1. JeanG

        And this reality check needs to be distributed more broadly.

  25. […] it was the weekend and I saw another movie (Into The Abyss, also really good) and finished writing that essay that everyone has been reading (thank god!) until we got to Sunday when I went to the Storefront for Art and Architecture to see […]

  26. KSC

    I love Andy’s post and the entire conversation. The topic seems to really be making its way around the theater community. However, I am curious if this post has made its way to the visual art community. Perhaps some of the responses here are from visual artists? But I don't think so.

    I read these comments on another blog today and it made me think of this discussion:
    http://theperformanceclub.org/2011/11/open-letter

    This comment is by “Simone” on November 24 in reaction to Sara Wookey’s refusal to participate in the Marina Abramovic piece.

    “In the visual arts, we are very far from your request and thinking… your experience may lie in the fact that the organizers do not come from a theatre, music or performance background, but from the fine arts where conditions are far worse.”

    Also, Joseph DeLappe on November 24:

    “I am a visual artist. Sadly in the United States it is still routine to show an artist’s work without any compensation.”

    I would love to hear from the other side on this topic.

    1. The art world isn't going to pick up on this. I was having an email correspondence with a very successful artist who works in both theater and visual arts world and is acknowledged in both, but separately. That person wrote:

      "Yeah, well–I say this as someone with some success in both worlds–Paddy, AFC [Art Fag City], and the Art World generally could not give a fuck about non-gallery performance, its blogs, its venues, or its arguments. It's not personal. The only way your points would get any traction is if they were made by an insider, which I'm sure they will be, in about five years.

      … my performance/performance hybrids got me a lot of traction initially, [but] it eventually divided into Artforum covering my non-performance work, and the Voice covering my performance work, and both behaving like the other never existed.

      Give it to the performance world for goodwill and curiosity, though. The Art World is basically the revenge of the nerds from high school; they were so traumatized by the experience that they remain eternally status-seeking, and eternally disdainful of anyone who wants in. It reminds them too much of themselves at 16.

      ….the worlds still have a long way to go before they connect. And watching someone like Simon Fujiwara get celebrated for unwittingly reinventing Spalding Gray is beyond irritating"

      SO – I don't think this will penetrate. To be honest, if even Performance Club hasn't picked up the topic despite how much conversation its getting here (P-Club just got a huge grant from the Warhol Foundation that funds visual arts writing), I'm not optimistic that anyone at all in the visual arts world will give a hoot. There's no incentive for them.

      .

  27. seungchan

    Hi Andy,

    First of all let me tell you that I'm not a card-carrying artist, my background is Computer Science and Design (where we do a lot of "object making"). I also dance and act, but not professionally, only because I love doing it. I have not read much critical literature on performance arts, either. The reason why I'm here is because a peer dancer of mine who has a deep interest in embodiment forwarded your essay to me, presumably because she thought I'd like it. Why? Because I am deeply interested in the subjects you mention here (authenticity, dialogue, collaboration, authorship, empathy, embodiment, craft, and art). I did my master's thesis modeling something I call the empathic conversation ( http://realizingempathy.com/ ), which maps directly to the very process we call "making" that spans across the boundaries of what some might consider object-art vs performing-art.

    So odds were very good that I was going to like your essay. And if I did, then I would have just left it at that. But after reading it, I got what you wanted to say. I got the subtext, if you will, but the framing of your essay really disappointed me. It's probably my reading of your essay that disappointed me, but it was disappointing nonetheless, and I think it's significant given what I thought was your goal in writing this essay. So I wanted to have a dialogue with you.

    It's difficult having a dialogue through a comment box, but I'll give it a shot. I want to better understand your intentions. And since it's hard to do that without real-time feedback, I'll do it by making a load of assumptions, and writing down my interpretation of what you have written. (which you're free to tell me that I completely missed the point)

  28. seungchan

    First of all, your essay has so many good points that were on there way to being made. The subject your dealing with (authenticity, dialogue, collaboration, authorship, empathy, embodiment, and craft) are fascinating ones. But here's the thing. I kept getting yanked back by your need to criticize and dichotomize. Half-way through I was no longer certain if you actually wanted to foster a dialogue between what you categorize as "visual arts model" vs "contemporary performance" or "object making" vs "experience design". All I could see was that you have separated them as far as you can possibly separate them, and really made one preferable than the other. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your goal is to foster a dialogue, yes? If so, can you see how this may actually deter someone from getting the impression that you would like to foster a dialogue? What do you think?

    I know you made it seem as if you "understand" why "they" are the way they are based on what you call the "object making" mind set. But, you immediately lost credibility to me at that point, because I have done a lot of object making, and that's not the mind set myself or any of my peers take when we make objects. We're not out to manipulate them, coax them into fulfilling our selfish desires. You talk about "craft", right? The basis of craft in the object making world is trust, dialogue and care. You cannot manipulate or coax a physical material to do what you want it to do. It doesn't work that way. You have to empathize with its (wood, metal, clay, glass, etc..) sense of integrity in ways no different than a dancer empathizes with their own body's sense of integrity, or an actor with their character's or their fellow actor's, etc… Sooner or later most makers realize that making is an inherently collaborative act. Those that reject that notion have a really hard time making. They get those "creative blocks." (not that those who collaborate never get them, but collaboration – i.e. improvisational exercises in theatre, and material exploration in visual arts – gets you out of these blocks much more quickly) Some do get lucky, and they swim in a lot of grant money as you say and they might die without having learned that. But I really think those are few and far between. (There's not enough grant money to go around to fund hundreds of these kinds of artists — I don't think — I guess I don't know — unless you have the stats that can prove me wrong, at which point I'll stand corrected) (although the problem as I think you also say is that they become rockstars role models for other artists)

    But then, __you__ even acknowledge that you're making a vast generalization. If you were going to admit that, why admit that at the __end__ of the essay? Why make me wonder about whether you really want to have a dialogue or you just want to criticize the whole time I'm reading your essay? If you had a handful of artists you wanted to criticize, then why not just list them at the very top then say you're going to critique their work. Why make it sound as if you're addressing a whole discipline? What's the value in doing that? Was that intentional? The effect it has on those who deeply identify themselves as being part of "visual arts" — especially those with a background in traditional visual arts — is to immediately question the validity of your premise.

    If you're a proponent of empathy (and this is an assumption I made based on the fact that you said "The attribution of feelings and emotions to a human being creates the possibility of empathy, moving the body from a field of abstraction into one of subjectivity.") Do you think you embodied that in the writing of this very essay? Do you think it's possible that the very way in which you undermine and dichotomize “visual arts” and “traditional performing arts” is the same thing those who you're criticizing is doing when they shun traditional performing arts?

    If you sincerely want to foster a dialogue you have to create a shared language, otherwise you're not having a conversation, but just talking past one another. And creating a shared language was exactly what I thought you were going to do when you started raising subjects such as authenticity, dialogue, collaboration, authorship, empathy, embodiment, and craft. But you didn't really get into them in any sufficient detail. I suppose you didn't have space or the time, but I have a feeling that you didn't go into detail because they were merely vehicles through which you wanted to criticize. Am I wrong? If you went into further detail about those words, those who you wish to criticize will be able to see more clearly if their thinking of those concepts are similar or different, and how. And when you hear __their__ definitions of those ideas, you can start to build a new language that creates dialogue. This will bring about more questions than answers, but at the very least you'll start to construct a shared understanding, and that is what dialogues do. Wouldn't that be far more interesting and productive, if your goal is to foster dialogue and mutual respect?

  29. seungchan

    If your goal is to criticize, you did it. There's no doubt you'll receive resonance from the choir. I resonate with what you wrote. But if your goal is to foster a dialogue, I'm afraid this is insufficient. It will get something going, because it's provocative. There's no doubt about that. But not in any different way than the artists you accuse of making art through novelty and shock factor.

    There's great content here to be fleshed out, but I really hope you'll move it out of the frame you've chosen which is to criticize and to dichotomize. I hope you don't take me the wrong way, because I don't mean to criticize. I don't want to be right. I just want to learn. And I say this with great hope for a real dialogue, because the only reason I'm commenting on this is because I also think this is an important topic, and I do want to see a dialogue happen.

    sincerely,

    slim http://realizingempathy.com/

    1. Hi – you're right, comments aren't a great way to foster substantive dialogue. I appreciate the points you make and am interested in your perspective. However I think you are attributing an divisiveness to my writing and perspective that is not of my making. The Visual Art world has long been critical and dismissive of theater and dance and have gone to great lengths to separate what they do from those forms. I'm just addressing a longstanding dichotomy that predates me by decades. To negate the validity of my arguments because I am referencing a pre-existing dichotomy seems a little excessive. Also, the notion that dialogue can't embrace criticism seems a little off. I have had many constructive, if challenging, dialogues that included very critical viewpoints. We have to be able to have open and honest conversation about not only where we agree, but where we disagree, so we can really identify what is common ground and what is non-negotiable. I'm happy to talk more and in depth. My contact info is on the site.

      1. seungchan

        I would love to talk. I'm much more interested in getting you to talk about your thoughts on authenticity, dialogue, collaboration, authorship, empathy, embodiment, and craft, though. And I would prefer something more real-time than e-mail or this comment box. Skype?

        Just a few points of clarification, because I have a feeling I have miscommunicated. I didn't mean to say that there's something inherently wrong with criticizing, it's just that it's insufficient in that it doesn't necessarily __help__ dialogue. Asking __questions__ to the other in a critical way can be appropriate (or downright necessary) when trying to engage in a dialogue, but that's different from categorizing a whole discipline based on a false and gross generalization, then criticizing them on that false premise.

        And I didn't mean to say that the validity of your argument was negated because you were criticizing. I meant that those from the visual arts with traditional training in the craft may easily question your premise and credibility given the way you have articulated your understanding of "visual artists" as people that manipulate materials to make their vision come to life instead of being collaborators the way theatre people are. That's simply a false statement, or at best an over-generalization. I hear the same kind of thing when designers criticize artists (yes, even theatre artists) for being nothing but self-indulgent entertainers that make things that "have no real function"

        I also understand that there are others who may have created the dichotomy, but if that's the case why do you have to use their dichotomy? I'm very curious what you thought was the value in using that approach to your argument. You say you are someone who learn from experience as opposed to reading books, did you experience enough of "visual arts" (not as an audience, but as a maker) before you arrived at that conclusion? It's one thing for you to critically __ask__ if the visual artists are the way they are because they subscribe to a method of working that you describe, and it's quite another to assume and declare it as such. Don't you think? The former is a critical question, the latter is a flame bait. Is it much different from what you claim the "visual artists" do when they poo poo traditional theatre saying they're not "real"? So what if the visual art world has been critical and dismissive of theatre and dance? Would your being critical of them the same way they are really change anything?

  30. […] Visual Art Performance vs. Contemporary Performance […]

  31. Nice article Amdy, I would like to read it again and respond more thoroughly, as there are a lot of good questions that are raised and discussed. One frustration I found when reading it is that you failed to acknowledge the fact that there are many contemporary performers who, in fact, make visual art as part of their work. Veruty mentioned in her comment 'visual thater', which I think is also an important aspect/genre to discuss. a.k.a. object-based theater/performance. Contemporary puppetry is a good example of that. I was at the Prague Quadrennial on Performance Design in June and it was phenomenal the amount of provocative, genre-bending visual-based performance/scenography/design that artists from all over the world were presenting. I come from a theater background, have studied dance and puppetry, and am now pursuing an MFA degree in Studio Art. I completely agree with you on the often 'bad performance art' that many artists without a performance background are making, and also the lack of flexibility for contemporary performance to exist in the 'gallery world'. But, I pursued an MFA degree in Studio Art to consider more deeply what role visual art plays in my work as a performance artist. In other words, even though my work is experiential and often deriven from the body, I also think very visually about how it appears: the colors, the textures, the objects…. So the point of what I'm saying is that just as there are visual artists delving into the performance world, there are likewise performance artists delving into the visual arts world. And I think that's where it gets interesting, and the boundaries become a bit more blurred and difficult to define…. and/or perhaps even unnecessary to define… because there really is a lot of crossover, and always has been. Sometimes putting names to things can make it even more difficult and separated.

    I will reread, contemplate, and continue to reapond. Great conversation!! Thanks so much for getting it going, Andy.

  32. […] Visual Art Performance vs. Contemporary Performance […]

  33. Gillian

    I love this. Forwarding it to everyone… this needs to be read. Thank you Andy! And ditto @ Ken Rus.

  34. […] the ideas that have garnered the most attention and discussion lately – our article on “Visual Art Performance vs. Contemporary Performance” (on January and the issue of Citizen Criticism and the arts (on January 15). Full details […]

  35. Great read with many interesting points.

    The idea of a cutting, leading, or bleeding edge in relation to what is new in art needs to die. Art is not linear and doesn't expand in one direction. It's more three dimensional than the old stuff at one end of the line and the new stuff at the "cutting edge". Cutting edges are happening in all directions and when comparing different genres the cutting edge for one type of live performance experience making is actually expanding in a backwards manner in relation to another.

    "So what are some of the differences between Visual Art Performance and Contemporary Performance?"

    One takes more skill than the other, but neither as much as dance! 😉

  36. […] (Please note the recent excellent articles by Andy Horwitz of Culturebot and Claire Bishop in the Brooklyn […]

  37. ApollinaireS

    Andy! I'm coming late to this, but this is a fantastic, nuanced essay. I've been railing on this topic in print and in person for some time, but never with such nuance or patience for the "time-based" visual art that has just stumbled on, say, time for the first time (music is "time-based" too, btw ). I love your care.

    Here is a my own, more rushed and polemical post and FT review that compare Maria Hassabi and Robert Steijn's performance art with the Abramovic and Sehgal installed and well-remunerated up the street. http://www.artsjournal.com/foot/2010/04/move_over

    Comments here that you are being "divisive" smack of any group with power/money saying to a group without it, "why can't we all just get along"? As James Baldwin said, there's nothing innocent in white ignorance. Nor in the art world's taking on performance without any sense of–respect for– whole worlds devoted to it.

    Anyway, mainly wanted to say, write me: I know a grant you should apply for.

    ~Apollinaire

  38. Adam Dugas

    I just keep saying "amen" to so many things I've read on this page – as a viewer and creator. Don't feel in any diminished by not having some master's degree as your clear writing is refreshingly intelligent and erudite without the post-theory garble that academic writing is too often cursed with.

  39. Why we must still ask how to cut a cat in two by one sword, when we are living in between so many cats, using many different tools, and we really don't need too many incomplete beings? Remember, that a simple relationship between "visual performance" and "modern performance" exist in American English only, or in English, but in many other languages is not the same… This what is called by you "visual performance" in a big part was created by poets, musicians, composers – not only painters, sculptors or stage designers… And performance art is not "visual" in its deeper specific but poly-sensoric, the term is directly inadequate, we're using it only by the language and culture context. Too many objections to continue at the late evening ;-), English under my fingers is not enough flexible tonight…

  40. […] to follow–will expand upon issues identified in Andy Horwitz’s essay “Visual Art Performance vs. Contemporary Performance,” and other […]

  41. Dear Andy
    A lot to think about, a lot to read and try to understand.
    I am not as academic as most of you, but consider myself as a visual artist and a contemporary performance artist (dancer). For me the two are blend.
    I studied for 20 years painting and during my BA (Arnhem Holland) I changed into performance art, using installations, films and my body as main object. Because I came more obsessed with the body than the object making, I continued doing a BA in post contemporary dance (School for New Dance Development, Amsterdam , Holland). I became a dancer and choreographer and it took an other 10 years to let the fine artist back in to my work. Now the two are blended and the work I make , I think will be under the umbrella of Visual Performance Art.
    What really struck me in your article is that visual artists are object makers and performers are experience makers.
    Yes I think I am both and that is exactly my goal; Creating an experience for the audience, through objects (Film, installations) and the relation ship with ones body.

  42. Thank you Andy!

  43. […] curators have experience working with performing artists to develop projects over time. I’ve already talked about this at great length and won’t rehash here. Suffice it to say that never before has the conversation about […]

  44. […] a Culturebot manifesto laying out the fundamental differences between visual art performance and contemporary performance, […]

  45. […] latest public conversation that began in earnest last year, when Andy published his essay “Performance Art vs. Contemporary Performance,” which animated the contemporary performing arts community, followed by Claire […]

  46. […] central critiques of performance in the visual art world that we’ve been exploring since Andy published his essay on the topic last year, and through the various events–a pair of “White Cube & Black Box” […]

  47. […] Culturebot in our exploration of the convergence of performance practices and discourse. First, as Andy argued some months ago, when he wrote: It is as if when visual artists and curators “discover performance” they think […]

  48. […] a large-scale visual artwork or hybrid work?”  Around the same time, Andy Horvitz wrote “Visual Art Performance v. Contemporary Performance,” followed by a discussion that Horvitz facilitated with Performa curator RoseLee Goldberg. But only […]

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